Debate Post-Mortem
Submitted by PAforClark on October 7, 2008 - 9:39pm.
Democratic politics
Okay - how do you think Obama and McCain did?
Who do you think the pundits will say won this debate?
The candidates do very little character assassination of their own, and none when face to face in a debate. They leave that to others: the 527s, the blogs, and to a limited degree their VPs.
I don't agree that Obama wins in the long run if neither of them were particularly impressive. I think the advantage of a dull, no winner debate goes to McCain. Obama still has to gain the confidence of voters who don't know him well enough to have made up their minds. That's probably true to some extent about McCain too, but an older ("mature, experienced") white male has the advantage -- even if he is a Republican, and even if theoretically it should not be their year to win elections.
Most of the voters I'm talking about probably didn't watch last night's debate. But if it wasn't interesting enough for their friends to talk about "around the water cooler" today, then it won't do Obama any good.
- Managed not to fall asleep this time (barely)
- Solid Performance....by Obama
- Michelle Obama looking hot in that red outfit
- WTF is with that home mortgage renegotiation thing that McCain threw out there...if someone in Las Vegas or California has negative $100K equity, the only way I want any of my tax dollars buying their mortgage is with them forfeiting any future gain on the house in taxes to be repaid
- In general, politicians not really saying anything and pandering to the voter with money that the country doesn't have
- M-A-V-E-R-I-C-K not mentioned once??
Dial testing at MSNBC was near Philadelphia -- Independents liked Obama; the Republicans in the group didn't like hearing McCain going negative on Obama...? Thanks, Norah.
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
If it could be done right, perhaps a mortgage renegotiation agency could help protect people's homes.
Perhaps it should be more like FDR's Home Owners' Loan Corporation (which was not a giveaway program, but proved helpful to responsible homeowners).
Here's an article from last year talking about how such a program might work.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/13/opinion/main3257337_page2.shtml
I believe that Hillary Clinton wants something like this.
http://blogs.wsj.com/wallstreetcrisis/2008/09/22/clinton-we-need-more-sensible-regulation/
on the other thread that the reporter from the BBC said...
The BBC's reporter at the debate said there wasn't much said but the behavior of McCain and Obama was very different. McCain was pacing around, "nervously" in the BBC reporter's words, even while Obama was speaking. On the other hand Obama appeared very much in control, of himself
...hesitate, stutter, and stammer around very much. He seemed at home in front of a crowd, even a small one. We hadn't seen him much in this kind of venue.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Interesting but in no way earth shattering debate.
Though I really did like Obama saying health care should be a right.
Now for sleep.
When does the 2012 race begin?
Nick Kelly
Wes Clark could still secure America as a national security candidate.
...that Dan Quayle had when he tried it. People seem to be able to ignore a certain amount in a VP, but not for President. In a full-fledged presidential race, her many weaknesses would become accentuated.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
The benefit of such a long, drawn out campaign is that it has revealed both of these clowns to be less than mediocre candidates. I'm not voting for either one of them. I can't play along anymore. I won't vote for anyone who is a current officeholder. All we'll get is more of the same. We've got to do an overhaul.
Additionally, I think an overhaul of the whole election process is sorely needed. It doesn't net our best and brightest. We could do so much better.
The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. ~Gloria Steinem
And I say this as someone who made the monumental mistake of voting for Nader in '00, but could you please tell me why you wouldn't regret it if we got stuck with McCain because of your one vote? You don't have to convince me of Obama's shortcomings, I've ranted about them plenty myself. But Obama has poise, intellect, good intentions, relatively good judgment, and character (albeit perhaps slightly imperfect).
It's the hand we've been dealt. And taking your ball and going home could very well lead to DEATH. That is a fact.
You say we've got to do a complete overhaul. But that's can't and won't happen right now and you know it. So why are you insisting on such a strategy?
You're talking to me about death? My son is deploying to Iraq at the end of this year--regardless of who is elected. I've waited and waited and waited for somebody, anybody to DO SOMETHING about the unfolding of events, and nobody has the gonads to challenge the disaster capitalists on what they apparently believe is their God-given right to obscene profiteering at the expense of our well-being and on the graves of our soldiers.
If we get "stuck" with McCain, it won't be because of my ONE vote.
I refuse to play along with this morally bankrupt system anymore. They can bleed me of everything I hold dear, but they're not getting my soul too. I understand that not everyone has reached this tipping point, and that new suckers are born every minute, and that's unfortunate,but ultimately, I have to be able to live with myself.
If I get hit by a hurricane, for example, then I'd rather have a Democratic-controlled FEMA standing by than a Republican one.
If everyone went along with the logic that their one vote might not make the difference then there would be no reason for anyone to vote, would there?
You're not using logic. All I can say is that based on your comments you've not paid as close attention to McCain and Obama as I have. ...I know, you think that you're just so much savvier than I am because I'm too naive to see through Obama's posturing.
Bottom line is that anyone who can look at McCain and Obama and expect better results from McCain is an utter fool or crazy person.
Barack has credibility and class. McCain called his wife the C word and Chelsea Clinton ugly and today he referred to all of us as his "fellow prisoners" and didn't correct himself. He also picked Sarah Palin.
If I have to live under President Palin then YOU and everyone else of your ilk are damn well the people I'm going to blame. And why you would take this stance with your son in Iraq makes your attitud that much more baffling. I guess General Clark is just as stupid as I am for doing his best with the cars we've been dealt.
You tried playing this fear card with me--I quote you:
"And taking your ball and going home could very well lead to DEATH."
Nice try, but it didn't work. I have very real fears, I don't need trumped up ones like that.
People will die under an Obama presidency too.
But I DIDN'T say that I expect better results from McCain, so don't put words in my mouth like that.
I hate them all, ALL of the professional politicians who play us for fools. My "ilk" isn't going to be forced to choose the lesser of two evils anymore. That's not a choice.
Keep insulting me and my "ilk" if it makes you feel better, though.
your ilk. ;-) I'd advise putting that person on ignore. Not worth the time, energy or space to deal with its twisted logic.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
I simply was making the point that since you must agree that we'd get worse results under McCain, then you can't justify behavior that could increase the chance of President McCain. ...but if you do expect better results from McCain then you are crazy and or very ill-informed.
I'm confused as to why I'm accused of playing the fear card. Why isn't it simply the reality card?
I'll try this again and I promise not to be contentious. (If I get contentious please let me know how I could have rephrased it to be so.)
You say you hate all of the professional politicians. Can you define what separates a professional politcian from an amateur?
You say you won't be forced to choose from a lesser of 2 evils. That is simply not true. Like it or not, Obama or McCain will be the next president. That's a fact. And that fact is mutually exclusive with your conclusion that you won't have to accept either of these men as your next president.
For what it's worth, I'm the guy who attempted to persaude Kerry to withdraw and give Wes his delegates since I knew history would play out as it did. I can't overstate my contempt for every Democrat who has stood in Clark's way of becomming the nominee. And that of course includes Obama and Hillary.
Obama is a much better leader then McCain. End of story.
But, hey, IF you would have more confidence in a President McCain trying to use diplomacy in Iraq than a President Obama, knock yourself out.
It was not an outright dis, but it certainly showed his disdain for Obama. People did not miss it. Obama kept his cool and looked in control. McCain tried to be active and aggressive, but did not score a knockout. That is what he had to do. Obama just had to look and act presidential. Seems like all the polls and pundits say Obama won at any rate.
Uncle Noel
Couldn't believe what I heard. There was Obama cool as ever.
Here in FL we had 2 incidents during Palin rallies. One was in Clearwater where Palin was playing the Obama is a terrorist card. Someone in the audience yelled "kill him." Unfortunately the secret service did not hear it, but it was heard loud and clear by the microphones.
The other one was in Lee County FL, the Fort Myers area. The sheriff of Lee County, in uniform, stated "We need to make sure Barack Hussein Obama is defeated in November.
How redneck of these people.
A friend of mine in North Carolina, a life-long democrate and activist, has mouthed the GOP that Obama is "scary" and he is going to vote Republican for the first time in his life.
waste of time. They're sort of like a bad movie that you keep watching in case something interesting might happen. And then it's over you ask yourself, "what the hell was I doing?" You can judge what a person will do by what they have done in the past, but I don't think much was said along those lines. The general public that stayed awake still knows virtually nothing about obama's past - since to ask about it is considered "character assassination." I would like to hear obama defend and explain his interference with elections in Kenya, his relationship with the Socialist Party in his early political career, his constant switching of his positions, his true relationship to Ayers, his middle east connections that seem to have helped finance him, and a whole host of other questions that have been bandied about the internet.
As for McCain, except for his penchant for crashing airplanes and being a prisoner, we don't know much, either.
But anybody that has been a politician for as long as he has is bound to have some "interesting" situtions. Comparatively speaking, though, he seems "cleaner" than obama.
So, it seems we have the choice between a geezer and a charlatan. Out of 300 plus million people and it all boils down to this?
Whatever the case, IMHO, neither is qualified to be president and I will not vote for either one of them.
Obama; an example: "I will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies." Then guess who proceeded to vote FOR the FISA bill.
Not to sound contentious, but can you make me understand why you wouldn't want to make sure that the man with poise, intellect and good intentions and character was put in the WH over the man who is just pathetic in a million different ways????
And if you're going to try to tell me that Obama is no better than McCain then you're either a moron or a baby who won't eat his carrots because he likes peas better.
...okay, that was contentious, but, still, you can't deny that anyone who is going to abdicate his civic responsibility and thereby possibly allow McCain to become the president deserves to be shown the utmost contempt for putting us all at grave risk just to make some point that accomplishes NOTHING.
"... the man with poise, intellect and good intentions and character..." didn't run this year. :(
The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
The outcome was pre-determined by the DNC. In 2004, AND 2008.
The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
That's right. If you can't blame the Clintons, blame the DNC. If not the DNC, the oil companies. God forbid we blame the voters.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
It would be even funnier if it was Washington DC instead of Washington state. Perhaps that one would be better with a different expression. Is there a CIMB (crying in my beer) or CMEO (crying my eyes out)? Or how about BMHATW, which apparently is used for Banging My Head Against The Wall.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
No, the majority of Democratic Primary voters went with Hillary. The voters were right. The DNC was wrong.
They didn't even follow their own rules, re RBC rulings and the Call to Convention rules. Look it up, I did. I read
the rules thoroughly.
fwiw.
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"...we must still put our people back into positions where our beliefs and values can be worked for. So, I'm supporting Barrack [sic] and the ticket wholeheartedly and ask you to do the same." -Wesley Clark, 8/21/08
Unlike many who visit here, he bears no grudges or ill will against the former democratic president and his wife. In fact - he's exceeding fond and appreciative of the Clintons.
It's pretty well known that the Clinton habit is to NOT endorse any candidate during national primaries, but rather to show support for the nominee once selected. So, no - they did not endorse Wes, or anyone, in the primaries of 2004. Hillary quietly endorsed Kerry in March when he was already the presumptive nominee, and both formally endorsed him at the Dem convention in the summer.
There was however plenty of citing of the Clintons' behind the scenes encouraging of Wes from the get go -- even according to Wes himself, as reported below in the New York Times. Gen Clark also found himself accompanied by a decent number of former Clinton staff members in his campaign if I recall. And then there were reports of considerable goodwill promotional "talking up" of Wes being carried out by both Clintons amongst party luminaries, and in key primary states.
---------------------
NEW YORK TIMES
Candidate Joined Crowd With Push From Clintons
By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE
Published: September 19, 2003Behind Gen. Wesley K. Clark's candidacy for the White House is a former president fanning the flames.
General Clark, in fact, said today that he had had a series of conversations with both the former president, Bill Clinton, and his wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, as well as close aides to them and that all of them had encouraged him to run.
Now the 58-year-old career Army officer wants to be president.
And the 57-year-old former president seems eager to promote his candidacy.
General Clark said in an interview today he had talked with both Mr. and Mrs. Clinton over the last few weeks. Beyond saying that they had been encouraging, he was reluctant to discuss the conversations because he was ''afraid I'm going to misquote one of them.''
Earlier this summer, Mr. Clinton and Mrs. Clinton were talking up General Clark to their friends.
''During their visits to Martha's Vineyard, there was certainly a lot of buzz about General Clark's potential candidacy,'' said Alan M. Dershowitz, the author and Harvard Law School professor who hobnobbed on the Vineyard with the Clintons.
''--Bill particularly was clearly talking up his virtues,'' Mr. Dershowitz added. ''You could tell he was Bill's kind of guy.''
And just last week, at a dinner at the Clintons' home in Chappaqua, N.Y., the former president told guests the Democratic Party had ''two stars,'' referring to Senator Clinton and General Clark.
Since then, some of Mr. Clinton's former associates have signed on with General Clark's incipient campaign.
One of them is Mickey Kantor, who was Mr. Clinton's campaign chairman in 1992. ''I'm doing everything I can to give him personal advice and talk to others about him,'' Mr. Kantor said.
Both Clintons, Mr. Kantor said, ''are really admirers of General Clark and his talents and are greatly impressed with him.'' He added: ''Given their admiration for General Clark, I'd be surprised if they were anything but supportive of anyone who has worked for them for doing anything to help him.''
Mr. Kantor said that he expected that neither Clinton would endorse any candidate in the Democratic primaries. But their enthusiasm is evident.
''He's a good man, he's a smart man, served our country well,'' Mr. Clinton said on Saturday in Iowa. ''He was fabulous in the Bosnian peace process.''
On Tuesday, he hailed General Clark as having ''a sack full of guts'' for a heroic rescue bid of State Department officials whose vehicle had slid off a Balkan mountainside
==========================================
Additionally, Tweety seemed to think the Clintons were very influential in Wes's decision to run. Even Bill-O weighed in at the time with the exact same consensus.
Thursday, Jan. 8, 2004 4:52 p.m. EST
Chris Matthews:
Clark's campaign is loaded to the gills with Clinton administration veterans, and the candidate himself admitted on the day he entered the presidential race that Hillary Clinton had talked him into running.
Mrs. Clinton has said she never endorses in primaries.
========================================
More reporting about the Clintons quietly helping Wes Clark behind the scenes...
The Clinton Tease
Ta-Nehisi Coates
Tuesday, January 13th 2004So when news leaked this week that Clinton might be quietly helping Wesley Clark in his campaign for president, all the pieces seemed in place to fulfill the narrative.
Bill Clinton is reported to have called Clark one of the Democratic Party's two stars—the other was his wife, Senator Hillary Clinton.
The latest talk of machinations by Bill for Wesley were reported in the New York Post last week, then picked up by broadcast media. "Bill is said to be personally involved and it's believed he's begun making money calls on Clark's behalf," the paper quoted an anonymous, well-connected Democratic activist in New York.
"My expectation is that the Clintons, both Bill and Hillary, will play sort of a behind-the-scene role in this presidential campaign," he says. "I think they will make the obligatory appearances and they will show support for the nominee...
========================================
It is possible that we bloggers, paying attention as we may, might still not be privy to everything that goes on between candidates behind the scenes in a presidential election.
What they did or did not do quietly for Wes Clark 04, we might not know short of asking Wes himself. But whatever went down in the primaries of 2004, it's clear that his affection and respect for Hillary was never dimmed by any of it.
MAR 2008- GENERAL WES CLARK:
I think she's got tremendous character. She's a person of strong integrity. She's got real values, and she LIVES those values. She is decisive - I've been around her many times and I know how she responds, and she can make a decision and live with that decision.
I think she'd be a great Commander in Chief.
I think she's the most qualified person in the race to be the Commander in Chief and I hope our country will have the wisdom to select her.
I like Bill Clinton in Iowa crowing about Wes's intelligence, his diplomatic skills, and his courage all at once. Too bad Wes decided to bypass Iowa.
''He's a good man, he's a smart man, served our country well,'' Mr. Clinton said on Saturday in Iowa. ''He was fabulous in the Bosnian peace process.'' He hailed General Clark as having ''a sack full of guts'' for a heroic rescue bid of State Department officials whose vehicle had slid off a Balkan mountainside.
Yep. He sure got that right. A "sack full of guts"!! That's our guy. :-)
I'd be pleased as punch to hear Barrack Obama utter anything to that effect about Wes Clark-- just once. He even had a few opportune moments to do so recently ... As long as we are here on the Clark Community Network having a discussion about just who has and hasn't been supportive of General Clark... Or as Wes put it:
“The Obama campaign could have said they agreed with me. Go ask them why they didn’t stand up for me.” - Gen. Clark
I think I did ask them back when it happened. They told me we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Oh... is that what they call throwing someone under the bus? Disagreeing without being disagreeable? God, I'd hate to see them when they are disagreeable! What do they do then, throw you under a 747?
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
they are still laboriously combing through Wes's Bio info, trying to find something... anything that merits giving him public credit for.
They can't just be going off gratuitously praising the unworthy, you know....
They could always say he looks good in a bathing suit.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
I think there's a picture of him out there from the '04 campaign where he was doing a tv interview. He was wearing a dress shirt and tie, but since he was only going to be filmed from the waist up, he was wearing blue jeans and loafers with no socks. Kelly Flinn refers to that picture as the "bunny slippers" picture because she thought Wes should have been wearing bunny slippers instead of loafers. Now THAT would have been funny!
Here it is:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b253/mware/12fa411c.jpg
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
...looking good in a green pullover sweater or especially in an argyle sweater, Maureen Dowd notwithstanding. And don't forget to include the gray turtleneck on MTV.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
I did. I tried what you suggested and nothing happened. I finally figured out that I had typed [/blue] instead of [/color] at the end of the statment. Thanks, anyway. It will teach me to pay attention.
Obama; a reminder: "I will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies." Then guess who proceeded to vote FOR the FISA bill.
When Obama was deflecting McCain's claim that he doesn't have the judgment to use discretion visa vi Pakistan he, Obama, goes, "He's saying I'm green behind the ears and he's somber and responsible."
McCain's laughingly quips, "Thank you very much." It's bad enough that it was a stupid attempt at humor on several levels, but the fact that he's even being so silly when the topic is so serious just completely proved Obama's point."
At least he looked as lame as lame can be.
Green behind the ears??
What does that mean? Is it mold and mildew? Moss?
Algae? Is it Soylent????
Sounds like a call to the haz-mat team might be in order.
The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Just so I'm clear, will you not bother to vote at all, or will you be voting third party? If so, why would you not regret it if you found McCain and Palin in charge? That just boggles my mind how anyone smart enough to like Clark could find it wise to gamble on the possibility of having those 2 nutjobs being in the WH.
...and if you recommend not voting at all, what would happen if nobody went to vote?
I don't like either of them. That's the best we've got??
Criminy, we are in trouble.
If no one came to vote, maybe they'd start over with some decent candidates...no, not decent, great candidates.
BTW, one should never end one's sentences with a proposition. ;)
I think I'm back to letting my dog take a dump in the yard and seeing which candidate's square it lands on (although I'm wondering if my dog is going to make it that long - she is nearing 14 yoa and may have a brain tumor based on some symptoms she's recently had [best case would be a stroke she might recover from])
I really, really hate McCain's mortgage plan he just floated
Or maybe I just vote straight Libertarian ticket even though I don't like Barr - I think the Republicans AND Democrats have sold this country out.
You're in Iowa, right? What's your opinion of the McCain campaign claim that their internals for Iowa show low single digit advantage for Obama?
...we must still put our people back into positions where our beliefs and values can be worked for. So, I'm supporting Barrack [sic] and the ticket wholeheartedly and ask you to do the same." -Wesley Clark, 8/21/08
It's nonsense. McCain's campaign put out some feelers (rumors) to gauge Iowa. They have basically pulled out of Iowa.
more good money after bad showing up there again this weekend. When you spend your life spending other people's money it's easy to be out of touch.
"...we must still put our people back into positions where our beliefs and values can be worked for. So, I'm supporting Barrack [sic] and the ticket wholeheartedly and ask you to do the same." -Wesley Clark, 8/21/08
Pretty dull, at least as theater. I'm not sure anybody was taken by either of them. If that's true, Obama won in the long term.
I didn't hear Obama say, "I agree with John/Sen. McCain" nearly as often as he did in the first debate.
Maybe people who haven't been paying much attention learned a few things, in particular the deceptions hurled by and at both candidates. Otherewise it was standard talking point and political advertising stuff.
To their credit, both of them stayed away from the character issues.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."